thoughts brought on by abortiondebate

[tsukikage]

In general I try to be the sort of person who is very open-minded and allows myself to continually take in all opinions as I gradually form my own, and even then I try to be receptive to other opinions. However, there's one opinion which lately has bothered me so much that I really can't keep an open mind about it. I'm not going to f-lock or cut this (on second thought, I think I will), but neither will I remove the comment feature, although I may or may not respond to any comments:

Your body is your own. You have the right to do what you want with it as long as it doesn't harm others.
Have sex if you want. Don't have sex if you want.
Go skydiving if you want. Don't go skydiving if you want.
Do drugs if you want. Don't do drugs if you want.
Practice self-mutilation if you want. Don't practice self-mutilation if you want.
Cut your tubes if you want. Don't cut your tubes if you want.
Exercise if you want. Don't exercise if you want.
Eat healthily if you want. Don't eat healthily if you want.
It is your body, your choice. Granted, I would encourage you to make certain choices over others, or at least evaluate the reasons you're making those choices and try to deal with those.

ABORTION IS ABOUT TWO BODIES. THE ARGUMENT THAT IT IS YOUR BODY, YOUR CHOICE DOES NOT APPLY HERE.

Granted, there is more complication to the issue of abortion than this, and regarding those issues I continue to be open-minded and receptive, even if I've mostly formed my own strong opinions about them. I'm even willing to discuss the point up until which we honestly can't say this is a second body. (My gut feeling is that once the cells start specializing it's not longer "a bundle of cells", and in terms of personal choices I wouldn't want to abort after fertilization.)
But the straight-up "it's my body, my choice" argument pisses me off to no end.

[EDIT: Okay, looking at further discussion that's arisen there, I can at least see the slope they're pointing at. That said, I still wish to remain where I am on said slope.]

*darts off to class*

Comments

[carve037.livejournal.com]

I have to say, I think the argument's an oversimplification, but I don't think it's wrong. You yourself frame it in what you would do "in terms of personal choices", implying that it is indeed a choice. If the fetus can't survive outside the mother without extensive artificial support, is it really fair to call it a second body? I think you're oversimplifying it just as much.

[tiwonge.livejournal.com]

Sure, it's a second body. I don't see how there's any way around that.

The question is whether it has inherent rights or not. (I mean, the bacteria that make you sick are also not you. But they don't have any rights; there's nothing wrong with taking an antibiotic and killing them.)

[hampster-cowboy.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with you here. Besides, it's their own damn fault for having sex in the first place.
Unless they were raped, but then it's still not fair to not give the kid a chance...

[carve037.livejournal.com]

I have a problem with the "motherhood is the punishment for sex" philosophy behind that second sentence of yours.

[killercherrypie.livejournal.com]

As do I.

Besides, it's their own damn fault for having sex in the first place.

Are we talking about BOTH partners or just the woman? Because a LOT of men skip out on their punishment for sex.

[hampster-cowboy.livejournal.com]

In every other species on the planet that is its primary purpose. If people aren't going to bother taking measures to prevent it, then they shouldn't expect otherwise. If they do and it still happens, well, tough shit. Guess it was meant to happen.

[carve037.livejournal.com]

First of all, that's not its sole purpose even in other species. Many cetaceans are known to have sex for social reasons not pertaining to reproduction.(Animal Planet) And in humans, which is the domain that really counts here, it's certainly not the only purpose.

Secondly, not everyone has access to those measures, even ruling out rape and incest. Many places restrict access to contraception heavily. Also, condoms break and pills fail. It does happen, and I don't think someone should be hosed for the rest of their lives on that account.

Ain't sayin' it's the choice I'd make, but I'm sure as hell not going to be hasty to condemn someone else for it.

[hampster-cowboy.livejournal.com]

I never said sole, I said primary. Even in other species who do it recreationally, it is still not the main reason.
And if people don't have access to those measures, how would they have access to safe abortion? It seems counterintuitive to me. I realize that they aren't 100% effective, I said that, but you have to be willing to accept that possibility before you go through with it.

I won't condemn anyone for their choice; I'm not that religious or anything. I just don't think it's fair to stop a life before it even has a chance to start.
Not ever a choice I will have to make, I guess. Not interested in those sorts of things. Barring the worst, I guess my opinion isn't valid since I won't ever be having sex. But then, I'm still female and if I had to make it I'd let the damn kid live.
It's not the end of the world to spend 9 months with a little symbiont in your belly.

[ellie-desu.livejournal.com]

Show me happy foster children stories.
Show me happy adoption stories.
Offer me help with the child so that I don't have to give it up or abort it.
Help me with birth control so I don't get into this situation in the first place.
Educate young women about fertility and birth control so they don't get into this situation.
If you can't take care of a baby, don't make one: there are other things to do.
Accidental pregnancies happen to married women as well.
Women who need abortions aren't always promiscuous harlots.
I respect everyone's separate beliefs, and ask that they do it as well.
Let's be honest: if we outlaw abortion clinics there will be black market services offered, putting both lives at risk.

[nyghtewynd.livejournal.com]

Rock and roll, sister. :) It amazes me that people in our country are all about "second chances" and "giving the benefit of the doubt"...but they won't give the unborn the same benefit.

[killercherrypie.livejournal.com]

It amazes me that people in our country are all about "second chances" and "giving the benefit of the doubt"...

What country do you live in? XD

[nyghtewynd.livejournal.com]

This one! You can do anything here...if you give the right "heartfelt apology" and look sad enough, people will give you another chance. Just look what's going on in baseball. Guys who have admitted to using steroids (see: Andy Pettite) are going to continue their careers and be OK, but guys who probably didn't even use drugs to that extent but didn't admit it (see: Mark McGwire) are getting killed by everyone. If you are remorseful enough, people will give you a break.

[killercherrypie.livejournal.com]

I think you're confusing remorse with large amounts of money/fame/influence. XD

[nyghtewynd.livejournal.com]

I don't think I am. Money and fame work both ways. They make people irrationally hate you as much as they let you get away with stuff. It seems to even up in the wash.

[killercherrypie.livejournal.com]

Perhaps I'm one of those few Americans who doesn't give celebrities second chances and is the first one to say "throw them in jail".

[nyghtewynd.livejournal.com]

Hey, I'm with you on a lot of that. People is people. :)

Rashomon interpolation

[idkrash.livejournal.com]

There is no such thing as simultaneity between two events when viewed in different frames of reference.

Now, let's replace the cannons with light bulbs...

The Rashomon Effect should allow enough space under the gavel of judgment to allow individuals to decide for themselves.

Although not explicit in this discussion I would say, please do not advocate laws that would impinge on the rights of individuals to make there own choices and deal with the heavy burden of those choices in their own way.